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Catharage's itch.io pageResults
| Criteria | Rank | Score* | Raw Score |
| Sound/Audio | #16 | 3.062 | 3.750 |
| Visuals(Graphics) | #18 | 3.062 | 3.750 |
| Overall | #24 | 2.449 | 3.000 |
| User Interface (UI/UX) | #28 | 2.041 | 2.500 |
| Fun | #32 | 1.633 | 2.000 |
Ranked from 4 ratings. Score is adjusted from raw score by the median number of ratings per game in the jam.
DevLog Link
https://num1d1um.itch.io/catharage/devlog/1064115/end-of-september-devlog-img-41-devtober
Developer Feedback Questions
I'm most concerned with player response to the onboarding and tutorial. If you give it a try, please let me know how the tutorial or initial play period goes for you and if you have any ideas for improvement!
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Comments
I gave it couple more hours and it has grown on me. Managed to clear out all contacts in a sector.
There's a lot of very interesting stuff in there. The sector generator is quite nice, it pleasantly surprised me with variety. I love the weapons system. The general feel of controlling something big and heavy through mostly indirect commands.
I'll focus on problems and improvement opportunities though. I'll just throw some notes at you so forgive me if they are a bit disorganized or repeating.
I know the game is meant to be a simulation of sorts, but I'd sacrifice some of the adherence to the simulation paradigm in favor of pure gameplay and monkeybrain feelgood. Realistic simulations are almost always boring, but the idea that you play a simulation is exciting. So my general mantra for simulation games is - never make a simulation, always make an illusion of simulation. Illusion that's more pleasant than the real simulation but still tricks the player into believing they're dealing with a serious simulation. In short, remove/compress all tedious simulation aspects, amplify all pleasant/fun aspects while not breaking the illusion of simulation.
Controlling the ship is hard. Both schemes have serious disadvantages. I'd think about having a single scheme but delegate tedious/confusing parts to auto pilot.
The ship should feel a bit more agile/responsive, regardless of type. Qucker steering. Quicker thruster change, quicker velocity response to it.
Get rid of the notion of horizontality completely. The main goal of controls is to point the ship into wanted direction. For that, you don't really need the whole yaw-pitch-roll system. You can drop the roll altogether. Roll (and notion of horizontality) is important only in atmosphere/gravity bound flight. In space, it doesn't really matter. It's not important how your imaginary wings are rolled relative to some imaginary plane when approaching the target. To point the ship you only need to adjust longitude and latitude, which translates to yaw and pitch. The roll can be just cosmetic. So I'd use only 2 degrees of freedom and map that to WASD. Optional cosmetic roll can go to QE.
Once there is no horizontality, you can drop the rendering of horizontal plane and you don't need Elite style bars in map view to show target distance from that plane.
All targets should be highlighted on hud, in both views, possibly by putting a square marker around them. A target should display distance and optionally the time to reach it in your current and maximal cruising velocity. You can select any target at any time and tell the autopilot to point the ship towards it, keeping your current thruster state. It can keep doing that during dogfights.
Approaching collectables is slow and boring and the reward is often not worth it. How about this instead: Use the above described autopilot to get the collectable into your range. Once in range, send out fast pickup drones to collect it. You can have multiple such drones and assign them to multiple pickups at once, or assign multiple drones to a single pickup to retrieve it faster. Alternative may be tractor beams with similar function.
Projectiles seem kinda slow. Make them faster. They'll be more satisfying to watch. Make the moment of firing a weapon more pronounced via some audiovisual effect so I know when I'm unleashing destruction. Every weapon phase should have some sort of duration/progress indicator. An enemy that's currently targeted by one of your weapon systems should have a corresponding mark visible on hud at all times.
I was very close to ships and I couldn't fire and I didn't know why. All blockages/cloaking should be made known. When an enemy in range is clicked on, display all information categories that you can possibly get about it, but for unavailable categories state the reason they're unavailable.
Destroying enemies is hard. I want rewards. I wiped out a whole sector and got nothing for it. Always reward some instant credits on enemy destruction. On top of that let the destroyed ship always leave several pieces of loot you can collect with earlier described pickup drones.
Enemies are too clustered. In addition to organized hard enemies, put plenty of weaker single ships flying around the sector for player to sadistically prey upon and practice fighting. The rewards should be smaller for them, of course.
I'll stop here for now. Will write some more if I think of any.
Thanks for the detailed feedback! A lot to digest for sure, some of the more radical changes I'll have to consider very carefully. Did you utilize the hybrid control mode in your further play?
I'll definitely think about simplifying navigation in the way you described by taking the horizon out of the equation, but a full-on autopilot like you describe for following enemies is not something I'd do since I want navigation to remain a manual process during combat.
Most of the HUD things I'm already sort of coalescing into an update in my mind and many have been suggested before, I agree that more information about weapon state needs to be visible on enemies that aren't under the cursor and also that I need to better communicate sensor strength and its limits.
As for loot, all collectibles apart from items (weapons and modules) already have magnetism and move toward the player in a tractor-beam-like way once in range, maybe I'll just increase this radius a bit to make it more obvious. Since handling items is very disruptive I don't want to have them move around and potentially overwhelm players when they all show up on your ship at once!
Bullet and missile speed is subject to the weapon randomization and increases noticeably as the difficulty (and thus item quality) goes up, may receive a small bump to its base values. Missiles being slow is intentional, to make both fast enemies and fast players capable of outrunning them. The full version will also include a missile variant (via perk) that is much faster and agile, for fighting small enemies.
A small bounty for every kill is a nice idea, I'll implement that for sure - and I can also add more ambient enemies very easily.
Thanks again, I'd be very happy to also have you on the Discord, we have a suggestions channel there as well!
I think controls/navigation is the biggest obstacle for an average player right now and can easily make them abandon the game. You should make "fixing" them number one priority. I could easily see myself sinking 100 hours into this if controls were "intuitive".
Let me suggest the following. It could seem strange at first but may actually work in practice.
Have the camera orbit fully relative as I already suggested. Discard roll and map yaw to A-D and pitch to W-S. Now the fun part. Don't steer in ship space but instead steer in camera space. Since primary goal of steering is to turn the nose towards wanted direction, this control scheme will do exactly that from player's viewpoint. The steering becomes completely intuitive without any need to mentally keep track of how the ship is positioned towards camera or towards any absolute planes.
There are two sub options for the camera when steering this way. The camera can stay put or it can follow the steering rotation with its orbiting. Perceptually, the former will make the environment static while the ship will rotate, while the latter will do the opposite. It needs to be tested which works better, or it can be an in-game option.
This will make both camera and steering, relative to the view and completely intuitive as your control directions map to directions you see on the screen.
You can now eliminate the horizon and the axis markers around the ship. The only thing I'd draw is a simple line going along ship's forward direction from nose to the end of range. This may help visualizing where the ship is aimed.
A cosmetic roll can be kept for both; map Q-E to ship roll and middle button + sideways drag to camera roll. The ship roll happens in ship space and camera is not reacting to it.
As for auto-pilot, it doesn't need to be lock-on. If you click on the target its current position in space is memorized as auto-pilot's aim. The location is not locked/updated to the actual enemy. You'll need to click again. This works similarly to your current pip mode just that you can click on the enemy. I don't know how you currently calculate the pip position but I'd do it like this: if an enemy is clicked, use its position, if empty space is clicked, use the farthest intersection point between mouse ray and ship's range sphere.
I'd still consider full lock-on autopilot option for people who need babysitting or have poor spatial perception.
Give the new update a shot ;D
Close, but not 100% exactly what I had in mind. Steering still doesn't happen fully in camera space (which sounds weird I know). If the camera orbits 90 deg - yaw becomes roll in camera space. I'd like to avoid that. My idea was to eliminate perceptual alterations/flipping of controls due to viewing angle change, as much as possible. The focus is what is seen in the environment, not the ship.
This is kinda hard to verbalize. It got me intrigued so I made a small demo/test to see if the whole thing makes sense. The idea is to steer almost like in first person view regardless of ship orientation, so when playing, if I want to bring something into the center of the view - push buttons that are in direction of that something on the screen. This I think is best mode of steering in fights where your primary goal is to keep targets in view and your ship's actual orientation is secondary.
In the demo, when camera is not locked, perceptual control direction flipping will still occur when the look direction is opposite of ship's forward direction, but this could be tolerated I guess.
I also exposed some other parameters to play with, including camera lag in locked mode, to better suggest that you're actually steering.
Catharage - controls demo by nenad2d
The password is the name of your game, all lowercase.
Alright, with your demo I do finally understand what you mean! Playing around with it a bunch I do think it would be more problematic for casual players than the current solution though, because the perceptual control flipping is one of the issues testers have brought up with my original, fully 6DOF control scheme. I had assumed your goal, like that of many testers, was to get to a "YGIWYS" kinda control where the relation between inputs and outcomes is always consistent. The lil' cam lag is very nice. In any case I probably won't have time to implement this before NextFest, so I'll have to see how it lands as is right now. Would you at least say that the new modern controls are an improvement and better for you to play with? I definitely appreciate you taking the time to make this prototype and I'll keep working with it to see where the controls go next! ps. can you send me the lil demo on discord or somewhere so I can have it locally?
I'll send you the executable. I can give you the source code as well if you wish so you don't need to reinvent the calculations in case you want to try some of it inside the game.
You can perhaps put something like this as some sort of experimental alternative control scheme into a test build, and see how people react. Maybe it'll be bad for your typical player, I don't know, but as I played with it, I realized I can more easily "do what I intended" than with what you currently have in the game. There's no flipping whatsoever if you keep orbiting inside one hemisphere (front or back)
There's a particularly satisfying (and I'd guess useful) 180 turn maneuver where you yaw or pitch to one side and at the same time orbit the camera to other side to compensate. Try it out.
The main problem with craft-centric yaw/pitch/roll control, except that is exceptionally nerdy ;), is that it's meaningful only if the camera basis is aligned with craft basis, or at least very close in alignment, so that player's mental model of directions corresponds to what they see . In other words, it's for first person or close-behind third person view. As soon as this alignment goes out of whack, the confusion sets in and it becomes very taxing for player to mentally map controls to what they see. It's especially incompatible with free orbiting camera, as the relation between craft and view bases changes from moment to moment. The player constantly needs to look at the graphic of the craft, figure out its alignment on all 3 axes, and mentally re-map the controls to get where they want in the world.
The new controls are better but I still wouldn't call them "intuitive", especially for more casual players who don't have affinity for "realistic" piloting. I'll play some more and report back.
Imo the best way to think about control scheme is to take into consideration what the player needs to do in a typical gameplay loop, and asses which control scheme best caters to it. With classic 6DOF I think you confine the player to the (near) first person view if they want to maneuver without frustration, so they lose the joy of observing what their craft and enemies are doing from various angles while still being able to successfully steer at the same time.
Went through tutorial and several warps afterwards. Managed to do some kills. Just for the record I played the original 8 bit Elite back in the 80s :)
I think the controls and navigation can be improved quite a bit. I'll need to play some more to give specific suggestions.
Neither of camera orbit modes feel natural to me. I'd prefer fully free and relative mode where delta x and y mouse movement result in delta orbit around current x (right) and y (up) vectors of the camera basis.
This lack of free orbiting was frustrating me all the time, as it makes hard to visually follow anything that flies by.
Thanks so much for giving it a shot, happy to see you put your mark on the leaderboard! I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the camera function you describe and say you would prefer, mouse delta translates directly to orbit movement in both cam modes as is - or do you mean you'd like to rotate the camera itself instead of having it orbit around the ship?
I should also add that in horizon-alogned cam mode you can click on enemies to focus the camera on them, which allows you to track them without moving the mouse.
In your unconstrained camera mode the horizontal mouse movement maps to orbiting around world up axis. I'd prefer it to map to orbiting around whatever the camera up axis is at the current frame. That way the same relative mouse motion always results in the same relative orbiting motion, from the perspective of the viewer.
I got you now, I'll make an update!
Onboarding: I miss reading about the background story. I read the objective of the demo game, but why are the ships there?
Tutorial: Great tutorial! Perhaps with a keyboard overview where the keys are seldom used?
Initial play: Nice to see my ship flying around, but I didn't catch first buoy :) It seems a bit complicated to play, and using too many keys on keyboard is a little minus for me. Would be nice to use mouse, left-click, right-click as functions in the game. But 3D games is not my cup of tea, so I'm sure it is great for 3D gamers!
This looks great! The aesthetics are right up my alley. Downloading now.
Hello,
First of all, thank you for taking the time to test my game.
I tried to complete the tutorial for your game as requested, but I didn't get to the end.
I'm not a fan of this type of game, which may partly explain my feelings.
Also, the game has a high level of polish. It's clearly a beautiful piece of work, and everything I've written below are my immediate thoughts, hoping that at least one of them will be useful to you:
I had trouble with the large number of keys used to control the ship and would have been more comfortable with a gamepad (I think).
The pace of the tutorial seemed slow to me and full of information to remember. The slowness and coldness of the game put me off. I would probably have been more engaged and quicker to continue playing if the learning phases had been distilled into the game, with a minimal storyline and stakes, and a third-party character to give me instructions and objectives.
Otherwise:
- Tutorial pop-up: add illustrative videos.
- Game start screen (when you skip the tutorial): very information-heavy (no way to split sections into tabs ?).
- Same screen: tooltips when you hover over with the mouse to explain certain terms, stats, etc.
Hey Mark, thanks so much for taking a look!
Appreciate you giving it some time and the warm words even though it's not your cup of tea, I expect many folks to feel the same as it is quite niche. I also agree that the tone is fairly cold and oppressive, this is intentional.
I've experimented with gamepad controls in the past but haven't found a good solution both technically and in terms of dealing with the increasing complexity and required dexterity of the gameplay, maybe I'll manage to put something together before release.
I agree with your take on the ship selection screen and the tutorial flow, and am planning to make the tutorial more narrativized as well as include a pre-gameplay cutscene that explains the overall world and goals before throwing players in. I also plan to split several elements of the selection screen into their own subscreens, since most of them will receive much more content, by release. Right now the demo is quite cramped. Tooltips and video previews are a good call that I'll work on implementing for release as well!
Saw it in your discord bio, so I played it before the jam. That time, I quit at the end of the tutorial because I thought the green cube that appears on the overview mode was the one I'm supposed to interact with. This time I found the white one.
Last time I didn't notice the control modes and the 1-2-3 to set movement (maybe they weren’t tutorialized or weren't in the game? They help a lot. I haven't used the other camera mode, though.
Posting this as I'm at the end of the tutorial. I'll play a bit more
Pressing the buttons in indirect control mode works weirdly.
A and D turn you relative to ship. I have no idea what W and S turn you relative to the ship. Q and E do nothing.
I feel like the speed they move your targeting point should be based on like degrees relative to the ship? Not movement in space. If they don't already work like that.
I swapped Q and E with each other, so e.g. E brings the nose of the ship right.
I don’t intuitively know whether I’m thrusting or not. I figure that’s the job of the particles in space, but maybe there should also be some difference to the trail or something. Like trail color and width. Or the trail has a little velocity away from you, so if you turn thrust low, the trail disappears and what there was will fly away from you. I can imagine that being kinda difficult, though. Depending on how you model the trail.
I frequently end up on the wrong side of the ship so my controls become reversed. Maybe it should be clearer which side of the ship is up.
Locking onto an enemy is disorienting, partly because I can't see my own ship.
I feel like it’s intuitive to use indirect control for large-scale maneuvers and turns, and direct control for dodging and precisely moving to positions. This is hampered greatly by the way the indirect control waypoint persists when you deactivate it and then activate it again.
Pressing space while there’s a tutorial popup will unpause. It will also sometimes fill the screen with grey. Not sure exactly how this plays out.
Hey, thanks so much for taking a look! The tutorial has definitely seen some changes since before the jam started so I'd expect confusion if you came into like half of the tutorial then and the whole thing now.
The keyboard controls in indirect mode are somewhat of a relic and don't work quite as I'd like. They are always horizon-relative, even if the camera is aligned to the ship, and can overshoot the top and bottom of the worldspace and thus invert. In the next update I will remove this functionality and make a clearer and easier to understand distinction between just Keyboard mode (direct mode) and Mouse mode (indirect mode). Since mouse indirect control doesn't suffer from this inversion and camera relation issue it should work much better. I'll also look into making it so that swapping to indirect mode maintains your current heading.
As for telling which side of ships is up or down, all ships have a visual design that has reflective golden plating on one side ("top") and grey high frequency greeble particles on another side ("down"). This was done to address the issue you describe!
Trail length does scale with speed, but since the ships have a good amount of momentum, the trail doesn't "update" immediately. There's also a bar at the bottom of the UI labeled "THRT" that shows whether you're thrusting or not.
Locking onto enemies can be disorienting but you can still rotate the camera position around your ship using the normal camera rotation controls to get it back into view. This (and locking itself) are things I consider "advanced" features so the tutorial doesn't address them in its limited time and space, but maybe it should, I'll look into it.
The reason pressing space during tutorial popups unpauses and turns the screen to grey is because space swaps to the overview mode, which uses a grey plate as a transition animation. Since time is slowed greatly during tutorial popups, this transition also takes more time. I've not yet found an elegant solution to this problem apart from disabling the overview mode during tutorial popups, which has lead to complaints in the past. I'll make sure to push a changenote if and when I find a way to handle slowmotion and the overview transition better though!
Again thanks so much for taking a look, I hope you come back and play some more and I'll get to implementing some of the things you mentioned right away!
I did play through the tutorial again.
My Q and E swap was wrong - the ship was upside down at the time. I was supposed to swap W and S instead.
I know about the thrust and agility bars, they're just very off to the side and easy to miss.
Played first level and died to a big thing. A few last issues.
At the end of the tutorial, I ended up with a very low-damage laser that clears armor effectively and has very short range, together with a long-ranged, slow-firing missile with tracer. Killing enemies was painfully slow. Like I needed to pass the weakest enemies around 3 times to kill them. I feel like it shouldn't be possible to screw yourself like that with equipment choices you make in the tutorial.
Couldn't pick up equipment after the first warp. Even if my ship physically goes through them.
a shield and an engine. Then later some more equipment in the same area that I didn't see the first time.
The area was the overlapping area between two beacons. The first two items appeared before I had killed many enemies. Maybe they started spawned, or spawned when I interacted with the beacons. Killing all enemies near the beacons didn't let me pick them up.
Indirect control feels much more agile than direct. That might just be that it switches thrust strength to make large turns, though.
Able to target weapons onto an enemy (the big thing) from very far away (850ish) in overview mode but not in normal mode. Part of that might be because it has really high signature.
When you remove the keyboard control in indirect mode, maybe it should switch to direct mode when you do those keyboard inputs? And vise versa maybe - clicking automatically switches to indirect mode with movement towards that position. That bit might need a setting toggle, though.
Thanks again! I've had reports of the no-pickup bug after tutorial before but have sadly not been able to reproduce it myself, could I maybe bother you to send me your log? If it's not too big of an issue just msg me on discord and I can tell you where to find it.
On the other points, the UI elements are explained in the Help&Info section of the menu, past testing has shown that players do not have the patience to be told about UI so I've had to move that over to the menu while at the same time incurring the issue you encountered - not sure if there's a middle ground yet.
Weapon and enemy balance is a difficult topic. Catharage is procedural and (intentionally) has large variances, both in encounter and player strength and challenge. It is very much intended that players start with weak weapons and then invest currency to upgrade the starting power of their equipment and/or find better stuff during runs. For the tutorial it is guaranteed that players find a laser, because lasers are the most reliable weapon type for killing the tutorial enemies, but it's still possible to get unlucky. I'll look into maybe artifically increasing the quality of tutorial gear to make sure it's not too bad of a time the first go round, but I also don't want to impress a power onto new players that won't carry over into the "real" game.
A difference in targeting ability between overview and normal mode should be strictly impossible, so either you've found a bug or the enemy ended up just inching into your range right as you swapped to overview - hard to say without footage. If you end up sending your log I'll have a look for any errors relating to this as well but "normally" there is no difference in sensor function between the modes.
I'll think about making both control modes interoperable and non-switched, it would certainly make the tutorialization much easier!
I've just now updated the game and implemented the changes I laid out in my first reply! Also overview markers for Outposts and Forges have been moved to be positioned identically to their interaction boxes so no confusion is possible on that front!