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Descending the Wrong Gradient's itch.io pageResults
| Criteria | Rank | Score* | Raw Score |
| Overall | #6 | 3.857 | 3.857 |
Ranked from 7 ratings. Score is adjusted from raw score by the median number of ratings per game in the jam.
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I like the overall idea. Cross-disciplinary research like this is essential, and it's usually how many technological advances happen anyway. Nature has always been one of the best sources of inspiration for engineering.
My main feedback is that the pitch spends a lot of time on the motivation and philosophy (which is compelling), but leaves the reader with a fuzzy picture of what the system actually is. I came away understanding why you think this matters, but not with a clear sense of what you've built or are building. For example, what do the distinct regions in your network do? How do they communicate? What does the architecture look like? I'd lead with more of the Snake results, the sparse reward learning, and compute efficiency are your strongest selling points, and give us the architecture, even at a high level, so people can evaluate the technical substance alongside the vision.
Also, the cargo cult reference might not land with everyone. I might just be out of the loop, but maybe consider briefly explaining it or using a more accessible analogy.
Separate question: Are you familiar with the doom-neuron project (https://github.com/SeanCole02/doom-neuron)? They're using actual biological neurons as the compute substrate for playing Doom. Obviously, a different approach from yours, wetware vs. software-simulated brain principles, but it's in a similar orbit of bridging neuroscience and AI. Curious if you see any overlap or lessons from that work?
Feedback received, I'm working on a bidirectional clarification that both illuminates what a transformer really is, why obsession with them is holding us back, and also the more piece by piece specifics of where I intend to go in my research.
Yeah, I have seen the human neurons playing doom thing...Not a fan. I don't feel like we learn much from the experiment, other than "neurons are good at learning structured environments, which...seems like a given. I don't think the biggest advances in AI are going to be cyborg types, at first, I think the big gap for us to bridge is creative cohesive minds purely in silicon. Once that's figured out, the discussion of interface will be a more productive direction, I believe
Big fan of epistemic humility and looking to nature to deliver the right solution!
Based on your approach it sounds worthwhile. Good luck!
Thanks!
I'm not an expert in this domain but I'll pass to someone I know who is to see if they would be willing to give some feedback.
as someone with only a passing interest, my main thoughts are:
- "biological neuro basis for novel network architecture" is an enormously oversubscribed field with relatively few good results - you lampshade this a bit but i think the pitch audience will be looking for concrete evidence your thing is exceptional because the baseline-crank-rate is so high. ("aeroplanes are great, but they'll fly even better if the wings flap!")
- I'd love to hear more about your snake methodology. with a lot of skepticism to overcome (both about your specific domain and also the general state of ML research experimental techniques) you're battling priors of "did they make a mistake with the experiment"
- the paper you linked to seems like a concrete and modest improvement to a specific technique. the research gap to get from there to Atari games seems pretty huge but I don't have info on where you are with your other puzzle pieces - being able to visually parse the games is useful but also the least interesting piece compared to the actual RL when it comes to success at the Atari stuff
- why snake, and why Atari? why are these useful benchmarks as your milestones towards your field-changing ambitions? AFAIK none of the original deepmind Atari techniques turned out to be of long term importance, so why is it a good proxy for what you are trying to achieve?
Thanks for the feedback! To address some of your points:
Yeah. Bio inspired is a graveyard of cargo cults with mediocre ideas, poor implementations, and zero results. ML people look down on the field for historically validated, if not universally correct, reasons. The wings don't need to flap, but they DO need to twist -- iykyk
I could write about the snake implementations specifically, I mostly put that aside to just focus on Atari 100k as it significantly more publishable/relevant.
Yes, the paper is a refinement of a specific algorithm that makes it more applicable to always-on, always-learning systems, really it's just a thing that I built for my own purposes, then realized that it was actually a novel contribution, and worth writing up, for the practice if nothing else. Absolutely the actual brain to play Atari games is *significantly* more complex than just this algorithm.
Why Snake, why Atari? My impression is that the real limiter we're hitting in the field is the inability to run continuous, adaptable intelligences on smaller, edge hardware. So, my internal roadmap is Atari 100k, then the harder version of Atari 100k (take off the training wheels that are typically part of the benchmark), then drone racing and harder video games, then different types of robotics and significantly harder video games. Eventually: practical brains that can be deployed into robot bodies like Optimus or Unitree, and produce actual value output in the real world. The video games are a ramp that leads to physical environments. I think. The original Deepmind Atari solutions didn't matter in the end because they weren't solving in a generalizable way, and they were using way too much compute. Afaict.
I enjoyed this ! For a long time I've been interested in genetic evolution of algorithms, biological representations within ai, and other "overlaps" between the synthetic and the 'organic'. I hope you get funding for this as it is really interesting !
That being said I agree with sunrise oath that as someone not ultra-familiar with these topics, I did fail to understand various parts of the explanation or even the understandings about the varying game types and their significance etc. I love the mission but the specifics were unclear to me.
I think if you had a "long / expanded" article explaining it all that you could link to in a more succinct pitch, that would be the best of both worlds for both the layperson and the hyperfocused
Sounds good! Maybe I'll write up a lengthy substack post over the next few days, try to build the whole thing up from first principles.
I enjoyed reading about this! I do not work in AI and only use the most consumer-friendly tools on the market right now (I do not host my own LLM instances), so my technical knowledge is limited. But I like the examination of the field's current direction and the proposal to essentially look toward learning from biological efficiency instead of maximizing a model of how brains work as the sum of many reduced mechanical parts. (As a music teacher, I have been recently very interested in how tactility and generative power were important parts of historical improvisation models whereas modern music theory is often abstract and too slow to be immediately practical.)
A part of me desired a smoother ramp between the pitch itself and the technical details of *how* you are pursuing new approaches to examining human neural architecture. I am not well-versed enough on this subject (either on the biology or on the computer science) to understand many of the links you provided, so if you are pitching to those who are not industry experts, it might help to have a primer article somewhere?
Thanks! Do you think I should have an additional expanded section in the pitch which acts as a smooth ramp from "I've heard about AI, yeah" to "Oh, all the labs are running laps around an autocomplete algorithm" + "here's the specifics of how I've been implementing bio-inspired algorithms into ML networks"? Or that I should write/find a link which serves that purpose?
Maybe a small syllabus or sequence of linked posts with a short explanation of what possible requisite "hole" it might fill in would make it easier to follow along! A lot of it is about communicating your own frameworks and models and distinguishing them from what others might use. This could then culminate in your thesis that the leading AI labs are barking up the wrong tree.
I really resonate with the core of your pitch here. I also agree that the field is stuck, biology works, and the gap between the two is underexplored. And the fact that you've actually built something that demonstrates sparse reward learning with a hippocampal memory system puts this well above a pure ideas pitch. The Snake results are genuinely interesting.
A few questions I was left with after reading your submission:
You name regional specialization as what differentiates your approach from the cargo cult biomimetic efforts you critique. But regional specialization is itself a mechanical specific of the brain, so what's the principled story for why this is the key insight those other efforts missed, rather than just being a different flavor of bio-mimicry?
Your stated vision of success is frontier labs redirecting resources toward alternative architectures. But the method is "I'll build a small proof of concept that shocks them into action." How would you evaluate whether what you're doing is actually moving you toward that institutional goal? And is building it yourself necessarily the most efficient path there, versus say, writing the theoretical case, getting embedded at a lab, or amplifying existing aligned work like Sakana's CTM? Developing your own novel biomimetic architecture that's impressive enough to get frontier labs to start allocating their resources away from their current research efforts and into more novel biomimetic approaches is something that'll take a lot of time and resources to invest in, but I don't see how you're keeping a metric of evaluating if you're moving closer to success or not.
Lastly, what's the failure model? The pitch reads as a straight line from Snake to Atari 100k to drone racing, but bio-inspired work is full of unexpected walls. If Atari 100k doesn't go well, how do you diagnose whether the problem is in your implementation or your thesis or your publicity strategy? What does a pivot look like? If Atari 100k does go well and it doesn't receive the attention you expected, how do you move from there?
Overall, the pitch is pretty solid. The conviction is clear, the direction is worth exploring, and you're already developing something novel and interesting. Just want to see a sharper account of why your specific approach is the right one, and a plan for what happens if the road gets bumpy.
Thank you!
My intuition, and what the neuroscience suggests, is that specialized brain regions are each providing specific services to the overall network which allow the sum of behavior to be flexible, persistent, and efficient to train. It seems to me that we have so far done a pretty good job of building ML networks that do a good job of doing the individual tasks of specific subsets of the overall brain -- CNNs are great at visual perception, we have fantastic speech transcription models, and we're increasingly good at language processing, obviously. The thing I think is missing is a network approach where we try to understand what each region of the brain is doing, how that service integrates to the broader picture, and how those interactions can be meaningfully captured in code. It's worth pointing out that the proof of concept can be made at arbitrarily small scales. Some species of parasitoid wasps have fully functional brains, capable of navigating them in flight, with just a few thousand neurons. And, of course, C. Elegans, everyone's favorite model worm, with its ~300 neurons, is a perfectly functional organism. It should be possible to prove cohesive integration of all brain regions into a useful and persistent entity, at a very small scale. But maybe I'm wrong, and the answer really is "Just keep scaling deep, amorphous networks."
You're right that I am really just taking a bet on the direction that I think has the highest chance of making an impact. The reasoning behind my belief is that there is essentially an infinite amount of value locked behind robotic AI, and obviously all the labs want it. We have a ton of companies working on building robots, and they're all trying to run them but struggling. If I can build a network which does even marginally better at practical robotics than the other architectures, I think that would get attention. If it does substantially better at robotics, especially running on edge hardware, it seems to me that it would be guaranteed to get a *lot* of attention. Again, we have the robots, and all the decent people want the infinite production, post-scarcity future ASAP. That future is quite literally held up on practical robotics, and I'm hoping to take steps in that direction, in a way that helps the whole industry head that way.
Yep, the failure mode is fundamentally that I'm not able to make any gains compared to existing architectures, in video game playing, drone navigation, or general environment interaction. If I try my best for a good while, and I just can't figure out how to do any of the things I'm envisioning, I will have failed, and I'll have to move on. Though, for the last case, there's actually a very different story - if Atari 100k does actually go quite well, and nobody cares, then I just turn evil and unleash an army of AGIs on the world. Look out, Will Stancil. In seriousness, though, if the architecture does well at video games, I'm fully confident it will scale to robotics, and I'll start buying robots, uploading useful brains into them, and selling them for 20x. Gardening robot? Cooking/washing dishes robot? Cleaning robot? People would pay crazy money.
Thanks for the feedback!