Play havoc engine game
Shoulder Parrots and Hooks for Hands's itch.io pageResults
| Criteria | Rank | Score* | Raw Score |
| Did it make good use of the Havoc Engine? | #9 | 4.300 | 4.300 |
| Did it build on the Havoc Engine and add interesting stuff? | #12 | 3.900 | 3.900 |
| Overall | #12 | 4.100 | 4.100 |
| Does the game seem fun to play? | #20 | 4.100 | 4.100 |
Ranked from 10 ratings. Score is adjusted from raw score by the median number of ratings per game in the jam.
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Comments
Great stuff! I really love the injury and flaws mechanics, I think it adds a lot of variety to taking damage. The only thing I'm curious about is that I noticed that the Kozel Medved doesn’t have any markable flaws or a personal quest. I'm assuming it's because they are a bear, but I feel like even that is the case I think they should have those. Other than that, the mechanics are easy to understand and the character sheets are easy to comprehend. I also think that the Last Stand is a really cool way for players to have their characters go out with a bang! The personal objectives of each character makes it simple for players to get into role-play. Overall, great game that I would love to play with my friends, AARRRRGHH
Frankly, Kozel was lacking those things in the submission copy because I ran out of time when trying to finish the game up and get it submitted. I'm working a new version in which he has his own flaws and personal quest just like everyone else. He is a bear, but he's also a person and I don't want to deny him the roleplay opportunities that everyone else gets!
Lord knows I love a good pirate anything. This checks a lot of boxes for me. Some thoughts, in the order they occured to me:
I LOVE the addition of the personal quest for each character. Some of them could certainly use a little balancing, though. Patches' feels underpowered (unless it's useable multiple times? In which case it's good!) The Mists' also feels a bit underwhelming. Personally, I wouldn't voluntarily blow up my character for an extra 2d6 once.
The Flaws as an alternative to injuries is great. For simplicity I might even take it one step further and eliminate the Injury option entirely. As a player, I would take a Flaw every time over an Injury, just for the narrative addition even if it had no mechanical impact. Could always mitigate this with a mix of injuries & flaws so that not every level has a mechanical impact (but should still have some kind of description when marked to keep the narrative alive maybe?).
I keep reading "Captain BrokenHeart" as "Captain Beefheart". This is not a critique, but a reflection on me.
I, like everyone else, demand that you keep Kozel as an actual bear! Would love to see him finished, as well (personal quest, flaws.
I would also like to see all stats start with "B" for the sake of alliteration. Perhaps Omens could become Banditry or Buccaneer?
I like how you use Heat, but I feel like it would make more sense as a shared pool? Since narratively they're all generating Heat together on their job?
Pg 18, under "Player Roll", the first paragraph ends abruptly "or can be".
I love how you break up objectives. Lends to the heist feel in a way I was struggling to capture in my game. Very cool. I would like a little more direction on structure, as far as the minor and side objectives go. Sort of a flow chart of this objective can lead this that objective, that sort of thing.
I also thing this game would benefit from a ready-made list of Adversaries & stats, so the GM doesn't have to come up with that all on their own. Makes for a lot more prep work. I understand you didnt have time to playtest, but that would be something I'd heavily consider when you do, to help find that balance.
Thanks for the detailed feedback. I really appreciate it!
I definitely need to go through and look at the personal quests. They were a fairly late addition to the character sheet. So late that I didn't even have time to get Kozel's done before I had to submit. Just ran out of time on a few items there (running theme for a bunch of what you highlighted to be honest), and I've been working on some revisions to try to get everything buttoned up. I definitely felt the issues with Patches' and The Mist's quests, and I'll make sure to tweak them.
I had the same thought regarding injuries after reviewing some other games' injury systems. I think I might test injuries giving -1 to a specific stat. Though, I do think that if that doesn't feel right, I should consider removing them entirely. I had initially wanted to keep them in the game because I had envisioned Kozel being able to heal injuries but not flaws. But that's not the direction I went with Kozel in the end, so it feels like an artifact of an earlier idea that didn't get ironed out.
I think I've landed on removing Omens as a stat and instead using it as the reroll mechanic and maybe beefing that up.
It's funny that you say that about Heat, because that's exactly what I've done in the latest revision. Instead of rolling on each player's turn, the GM now rolls one big heat roll, equivalent to all players' heat added up at the top of the round. Players then have to decide how they're going to address the heat throughout the course of the entire round, rather than on each individual turn. I'm going to rework the captured mechanic to reflect that if X number of successes are left in the heat pool at the end of the round, the GM captures the player who generated the most heat that round. Need to playtest it though to figure out the right number of successes. Right now 5 feels right to me.
My latest revision has lots of notes on how to improve major and minor objectives and show GMs how to use them. That was a huge takeaway from reading other submissions. I like the idea a lot, but I need to do a much better job of explaining how to use it.
Adversaries + stats were cut for time. I had three ready to go in my notes doc, but I just couldn't get them polished in time to include in the submission. I will definitely be pulling some in though because I want to put more emphasis on the different types of adversaries I had envivisoned, between party guards, party guests, and house staff.
Thanks so much for the feedback. It help reinforce a lot of the things I was thinking needed to change in the doc and let me know for sure that my focus is on the right places!
Awesome, sounds like a lot of great changes. Can't wait to see what you come up with, I'm definitely going to be running this!
Looks great!
Highlights:
Constructive Criticism:
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm working on a revised version that addresses both pieces of your feedback. I still like the idea of getting the characters in front of the reader early, but it will just be a small bio section & some notes on playstyle for each character, like I've seen in other submissions. The full character sheets will be moved to the end.
I was running low on time and wasn't able to do as much for the presentation of the doc. I'm working on fixing that now, completely redoing the layout in affinity to improve readability and make the doc more interesting overall. You do have a great point regarding using a Serif font though. I almost always go Sans Serif because I personally like it better, but a Serif Font would aboslutely be more evocative. I'll take a look into distressed fonts for headers.
Thanks again!
I am a huge fan of this, and I had a blast reading parts of it aloud to my partner. Every one of your PC concepts is awesome; please keep the literal bear in some form. I like the flaw-injury system a lot; it adds some exciting choices, taking disadvantages vs. forgoing advantages and mitigable vs. permanent conditions. The tiered abilities play well with my sense of symmetry and also add some meaningful decision points around resource use. I instinctively got what a few of your Stats were for without having to read the description, but not Booty or Omens. Heat and the multiplicity of adversaries is an interesting twist on reinforcement rules; it does add a fair amount of crunch, especially for the GM. Your structure of major and minor/side objectives gives the players and GM a lot of narrative freedom while providing a nice clear plot skeleton and game arc. At one point in your rules you refer to "advancing an objective clock" rather than removing resilience, and I think this way of framing it actually adds a mechanical contrast that might help make Havoc games more legible. +1 vote for ending the campaign with a set-piece ship battle; just a capstone Objective would work great.
Thank you for the feedback! I'm glad it was a fun read!
I'm glad you like the characters. I think each of them has a unique niche, though some are still a little hamfisted. I'm hoping with some polish and some character art, that will shine through even more.
I'm definitely going to take a second look at the stats. I've received a lot of feedback on Omens, which was something I was really attached to personally. However, most of the feedback has been that it doesn't fit. I've been considering pulling it out and using it to reflavor the built in "tell a tall tale" mechanic that I think is underexplained as well. For Booty, I just felt like it HAD to be a stat, but I agree that it's not as intuitive as the others. I could always drop it as a stat and use it as the Gear/Equipment, but I worry that I'll lose some character and I'm not sure I'm ready to go a 3 stat spread.
I definitely hear you on heat adding crunch. I've also been considering going to a single roll at the top of the round which is everyone's heat added together, similar to what I've seen in a few other submissions in the jam. That may add a bit more crunch at the outset of a new round, but hopefully will smooth out each individual round. It will change a few of the other mechanics though, like pirates getting captured, so I'm still working out the details on what I think I'd like to do with it.
As for thinking about the objectives as clocks. Honestly, that's one of the things that helped me wrap my head around the system in the first place. I might ultimately do a rewrite to emphasize that & make it more consistent throughout. I really like the way that it intuitively implies that progress is being made in a way that reducing an objective resilience score doesn't do as well.
Lastly, I'll take the +1 to ship battle. I think that's the biggest thing I'm hearing as feedback for the adventure side of the doc. I've got some ideas cooked up that I think will be fun to play out.
Thanks again for the detailed and thoughtful feedback!
Lovely vibes! The bear character is peak, very One Piece, whether intentionally or not lol!
The 4 main stats are very fun, especially booty.
Minor objectives and sub objectives being suggestions is really nice, i like the flexibility of that kind of thing, it lets the story flow a lot more naturally than otherwise.
Great use of public domain art as well, love to see art even just for aesthetic.
I do wish that there was a ship battle somewhere in there, because pirates yarrrr
Thanks for the feedback! I was watching a lot of One Piece and Our Flag Means Death and listening to a bunch of Alestorm. The bear was explicitly influenced by One Piece. He was originally planned to be Kozel "The Mad Bear" Medved, a former combat surgeon with anger management issues. However, while writing it up, I jumped the shark and just made him an actual bear. I'm considering reigning it back in and making him a former combat medic with the power to turn into an actual bear to make it feel just a touch more grounded.
When it comes to Objectives, I'll be honest. When I first picked up Eat The Reich, I just though that was how the system worked, so hopefully it feels intuititive in play.
I am unfortunately lacking in talent for visual artistic media, so if I didn't have free art, I wouldn't have any art at all lol.
Lastly, I'll copy the below from another comment on ship-based combat, because that is something I'm thinking up:
I've got two ideas on my list for how to incorporate ship based combat. Both are effectively an end game chase scene. The most obvious way is that once the players have Maggoteye's head, they need to get their ship out of the harbor and have to escape other ships chasing them. The other, which feels more piratey is that when they find the governor, he tells them Maggoteye's head is on a ship headed somewhere and then they have to get back to theirs, hunt the ship down down, board it, and find the head. I would just need to slim down major/minor objectives along the way so it doesn't feel too long.
Ship chase scene sounds awesome! I think having the party flee at the end would be very fun and would fit the heist theme. (Plus you can have a kraken or something.)
PLEASE keep Kozel as an actual bear, it adds a touch of fantasy that makes the world stand out as not just pirate. He's the Chopper of the group and i love it.
excited to see updates you make!
Definitely like the theme and settings and the - dice addition is an interesting twist. The only thing that I wasn’t sure of was the stats. With Havoc the stats aren’t so much a description of what you are good at as the type of scenes you shine best in and despite the alliteration being on point, I’m not sure it would be easy to theme a turn around those.
Thanks for your feedback! I think that's a very fair comment regarding the stats. While I was building this out, I worked up three different stat systems and frankly, I went with the one that felt the most piratey, but I definitely think it could be changed. One of the ideas I already have written down is to remove Omens as a stat and maybe turn it into a very limited resource (like something you get once or twice in an entire session) that allows for a full reroll of the dice pool. That feels appropriate to the vibe I was trying to hit.
The other piece of feedback I'll take away is to revisit my other stat systems, which were these:
Stats Version A
Stats Version B
BEING A PIRATE IS ALRIGHT WITH ME!
This looks like such a blast! Having read Bright Sun Games' comment, I have to say that they're probably correct regarding Kozel. That said, I personally will riot if there is no playable bear character in Shoulder Parrots and Hooks for Hands, and I would die for Kozel.
I really like all the characters, they're so fun and colorful. Like the other comment already said, I think the flaws system is really clever, and I love how there's a mixture of good and bad stuff in there, and how a lot of them have specific triggers. Generally, adding a minus(-)-die mechanic as a negative counterpart to bonus(+)-die is such a clever addition to the system.
Honestly I'm impressed by how well some of the groundwork you laid out here would work (I think) for a heist-centric Havoc game. I suppose this is a heist-centric Havoc game as well, though the pirate flavoring comes out on top for me. Although I agree with the sentiment that a ship-based objective/location would've been fire and laid on the pirate vibes extra thick. That said, I'm not sure if a boarding action scene would've been able to interact interestingly with the Heat mechanic.
Speaking of: love the Heat mechanic, it's the main thing that made me comment on how well the ideas here could be applied to a heist-centric game.
The game needs a little polishing here and there (which is both fair and to be expected when it's a game jam submission, I feel like), but I think you've got a stellar idea with really cool foundations to build upon!
Bonebeard would be proud.
- Jorrit
Thanks so much for the review! I didn't really set out to make a heist game, but that's definitely where it ended up by the end of the month.
I want to keep working on the flaws. I think the concept feels good and enticing to pick them, but also gives some mechanical weight that intrinsically tied to the narrative, which is my favorite thing about how the equipment works in the Havoc Engine. I think with some more playtime, I'll find some things that feel interesting and impactful after I see where people take the characters in game.
I'm glad you liked the heat mechanic so much, it went through a few different version before I found one that felt impactful and thematic. After reading the Trash to Treasure submission, I have almost been wondering if the GM should roll one big dice pool at the beginning of the round based on everyone's heat combined, then allow players to whittle way at it until the end of the round, and then spend it accordingly, maybe with the cavaet that anyone whose heat gets reduced to zero during that round can't be hit, but then I'd have to rework the capture mechanic because it is dependent on what a character decides to spend successes on in their turn.
I've got two ideas on my list for how to incorporate ship based combat. Both are effectively an end game chase scene. The most obvious way is that once the players have Maggoteye's head, they need to get their ship out of the harbor and have to escape other ships chasing them. The other, which feels more piratey is that when they find the governor, he tells them Maggoteye's head is on a ship headed somewhere and then they have to get back to theirs, hunt the ship down down, board it, and find the head. I would just need to slim down major/minor objectives along the way so it doesn't feel too long.
I'm going to take it back and rework some stuff for sure and reupload in a week or two I think. Firstly because I ran out of time, I basically just had to format and submit my google docs version and I didn't have the time to edit it and lay it out in Affinity. Now that there's less pressure, I'd like to improve the presentation.
Time is never on our side, and I do wanna say I feel like it's commendable that you've created all this within the timeframe of the jam. Looking forward to seeing the prettied up version!
In JAMS, which my friend/fellow Devil Whale Rik wrote, durign playtesting we came up with a similar idea to what you're describing (and apparently that Trash to Treasure does, though I haven't gotten around to reading that one yet). JAMS just has one static number that players have to whittle down during a round, as opposed to one shared "threat dice pool", but the concept is similar. During playtesting we found that it really amped up the teamwork and community aspects of the game, but further abstracted what exactly you were defending against. As JAMS has a lot of objectives/situations that aren't as hostile as in Eat the Reich or Shoulder Parrots and Hooks for Hands, that actually worked out really well for JAMS, but your mileage might vary. Interesting idea to play around with at the least, for sure!
I feel like either idea for a ship situation sounds fire! I think having it be a bit more "focused"/straightforward, with a smaller location and mostly a main objective to focus on, could work really well, yeah.
This does remind me that I really rather liked the way you handled locations and objectives, specifically for a heist-centered game!
Anyways, I look forward to seeing the next version, and good luck with your further yar-har-fiddle-dee-dee-ing.
- Jorrit
Thanks again! I'll make sure to check out JAMS asap!
I absolutely see how the mechanic of a shared GM dice pool for all players in a round would offer tough decisions regarding risk/reward. i.e. not responding to threats on your turn if you think the next person will roll enough dice to get it on their turn. But it definitely seems like a great tool for reinforcing teamwork!
A fun premise, and I think pretty well implemented. I can’t necessarily comment on how well the game might run without playtesting it, but it looks like it would work upon an initial read.
Thanks for the feedback. Im really happy with the concept of the flaws but definitely think some of them could be more refined. One of those things that I think has a lot of promise but I need to spend more time cooking them up for each character.
The bear character is absolutely out of left field and is still pretty half baked. He was originally intended to be a human medic with an old war nickname "Mad Bear". But I was watching a lot of One Piece while working late at night and I think a little too much of that influence worked it's way in. I was in a rush to get him added and probably could have left him out entirely until I had a better idea of who he is.
I had the same thought about omens and almost dropped it entirely for that reason. I couldn't think of a suitable replacement to keep the pattern going. But I felt like the thematic influence of having the concept included outweighed my concerns about it not fitting perfectly with the other four.
It's funny you say that the adventure needs more time on ships because my initial outline had a fourth phase which was getting the boat out of the harbor. I cut it for time but I agree that it does feel like the pirate adventure needs to at least be partially spent on a boat.