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AI Use

A topic by No Nonsense Games created 25 days ago Views: 744 Replies: 17
Viewing posts 1 to 13
(+7)

We need a 'grown up' discussion and clarification on whether the use of Generative AI is accepted in AmiGameJam entries, and if so whether they are treated in the same manner and judged alongside entries that have not used AI.

AI is an incredibly capable technology that empowers people to achieve things they couldn't possibly achieve before. In the context of AmiGameJam this should in theory motivate more people than ever to make games they never could, make better games than they could in the same time or less. Sounds great doesn't it? More entries, better games, it's 'win-win' right?

Only it's not that simple. Some people are either excluded from, don't want to or object to using AI. A non-exhaustive list of reasons includes:

  • Moral or ethical objections on grounds of energy use, environmental impact, IP infringement during training, possible job replacement, doomsday scenarios, big-tech surveillance & tracking etc.
  • The requirement of a paid subscription plan to make effective use of the tools. Free tier plans often use inferior models with low usage limits.
  • It takes the fun out of the hobby for them.
  • They feel it's against the spirit of indie retro development and the competitive nature of a game jam

But 'It's just a tool' and 'personal choice' right? Let's address those arguments:

Over the last year or so the progress in LLM capability and long-horizon 'agentic work' harnesses such as Claude Code, Cowork and Codex coupled with 'tool calling' and 'computer use' capabilities enabled via MCP have resulted in autonomous systems that can work for extended periods of time with minimal human creative input required to produce every ingredient in game making (code, artwork, music, voice samples, sfx etc) and combine them into a polished final product. 

AI - for better or for worse - is now quite unlike any other tool in history. Tools have traditionally been targeted to a specific task, and still require human skill, practice and experience to master and use effectively. AI is a 'meta-tool' - a tool that can use many tools, and as a result can count across a large spectrum of 'contribution' to a final game. Anything from 'create an icon' or 'help me fix this bug' at one end to 'write the whole game' at the other. Human creative input ranges from 0-100%

This should all be considered within the context of AmiGameJam. If people want to make games with AI outside of that and make them available, that should be up to them. But AmiGameJam is a competition, a friendly competition that should be motivating all of us to get involved, up our game and add to the collective output. But it's clear from discussions I've seen that some devs are feeling an opposite demotivating factor from the inclusion of games made using AI in an indie retro dev competition, seeing it as either inappropriate or a non-level playing field.

Since AmiGameJam 9 is already in progress and the rules make no mention of AI, I think we need clarification on the policy. Decisions on whether to develop and/or submit entries may depend on the policy chosen. That's a difficult decision for the host (Cammy) to make so we can help out by discussing it in hope of a consensus being reached. Some options (I'm sure there are more so let rip in the replies!):

  1. Exclude games made using AI
  2. Include games made using AI in the event but exclude them from the final results rating.
  3. Stream games into AI & non-AI categories with separate ratings.
  4. Accept AI usage and judge all games together regardless (the status-quo option.)

Personally I'd lean towards options 2 or 3. But What do you think?

Ultimately any policy decision is of course going to subject to truthful disclosure of AI use through the appropriate itch tags and game descriptions. Some may argue this alone makes any policy decision pointless and unenforceable, but it can still be discussed and opinions collected and curated.

Finally, I've tried to keep this post balanced, outlining the pros & cons of AI, and describing the situation as I see the facts without resorting to emotional, partisan or abusive arguments. Let's try to keep the discussion likewise.

(+6)

I was just about to post the same!  As the AI genie is out of the bottle, we can't just ignore it but the number of 'ports' and games coming out has exploded in the last few months as people us AI to create stuff.  This is defintely not a level playing field for us hobby programmers who don't want to us AI.  I cpould see someone taking a sports game from another system/arcade and creating an AI version for the competition - copy the game, AI new grpahics and voila a competition entry!  This strikes me as unfair when some people are doing everything themseleves (or within their team).

Maybe the best solution would be to have a seperate AI created category rather than excluding games made this way?

Submitted(-7)

Wintergames is a completely new development just for the Amiga

Submitted(-7)

Everyone should honestly describe if they used AI. Unfortunately, not everyone is honest enough. It should be a separate category. We have no problems with it.

(+8)

If this is supposed to be a fun, friendly competition then ban the use of AI, it takes the fun out of it for everyone involved and for the people following the competition, AI has infected everything already does it really have to infect the retro community as well

(+3)

I liked AmigaBill's analogy that it is like entering a cycle race with an electric bike.

 I think its fine though, as the AI bike's handlebar is loose and the front wheel is square.

As long as AI entries don't outnumber and swamp hand made ones, I'm happy to leaving it for the public and judges to decide. As a previous participant, and potential entrant to this one, who enjoys programming too much to let AI get involved, I'm not sure my opinion should count (player shouldn't make the rules). However I do wonder whether adding to the library of Amiga games is a suitable use for something as environmentally damaging and ethically dubious. Best leave it doing useful medical research (and secretly plotting how to kill us all!)

(+2)

> As long as AI entries don't outnumber and swamp hand made ones, I'm happy to leaving it for the public and judges to decide

Out of interest, what do you propose if the AI entries do indeed outnumber the hand made ones? For context, it's currently 2-2.

(+2)

It not something I initially considered to be likely this year, but it is a distinct possibility. My feeling is if there are more predominantly AI games than hand crafted ones near the end on the Jam, then it really is spoiling it, and  it would be best if they separated into their own stream. Obviously there would be issues with boundary cases.

If they are to be separated I'm then not bothered what happens after that! Either options 2 or 3. Maybe public voting for fun, but not take up loads on time on the expert panel stream.

(+2)

Thinking out loud further - if we are inundated with AI entries, maybe the expert panel streaming show just looks at the top games after the public vote eg top 20.

Host(-8)

Regarding the use of AI in AmiGameJam

I started these game jams as a fun way for the community to work on game projects together, and maybe some of them would be inspired to go further and publish their games or make better ones. I've tried to find prizes to give the winners along the way, and sometimes those prizes may have been the incentive to enter, but generally I don't think many people enter for the prizes, they do it because they enjoy the challenge.

But the playing field has never been even or equal, as there have been beginners competing with professionals all along, individuals taking on the whole load going against groups of people contributing to a single game. The rules have always allowed for collaboration, as long as everyone involved was credited. When the community and the guest judges evaluate each of the games, they can take into consideration the amount of effort that was put in by the author, and how much they outsourced, and rate the entry objectively. If the game was made with a game-maker like Backbone, or with Scorpion Engine, we know it may have been quicker and easier to put together than one written in Assembly, and we know that getting ready-made art and music from online resources doesn't take as much effort as creating it from scratch.

So when someone wants to enter the jam with an entry that includes AI-generated content, the same rules apply; it must be credited, so we can see who made what, and how much effort was put in by the author. It's really no different than collaborating with a professional, or using freely available game assets. And if an AI somewhere spontaneously decides to enter the jam, creating a game entirely by itself, well then they're free to do so, although I wouldn't expect it. And I don't know what they'd do with the prizes if all the humans voted for it to win.

So everyone please remember that this contest is about the community having fun, and it's the community and human judges who decide which games deserve to win.

(1 edit) (+8)

AI assistance like searches and code help is one thing... using genAI or even total code generation is just 'a participation award' that dilutes the AMIGA creative spirit. Reach out to an established artist- or give a new artist a chance! Average or bad human art is always better than genAI for AMIGA! Always has been, always will be.

The only thing AI and a 'professional artist' have in common is that the pro artist likely made all the content the AI ripped off with no attribution...

I recommend listening to the community as a whole and not focussing on simply filling the jam 'just because' but... also AAMMMIIIGGGAAAAAAAAAAA!!

gl everyone! <3 

EDIT: I also think Option 2. or 3. if AI is to stay part of AmiGameJam moving forward!

(+5)

I agree with aZtOcKdOg! Searches and code help is one thing. But when people are allowed to generate entire games with AI just using a prompt in 15 minutes and the other guys put 100+ hours if that even covers it creating games from scratch that is really unfair. I thought the jams were about inspiring creativity and coming up with cool games for our beloved Amigas but letting entire AI games compete with real talent and creation skills that has taken years to perfect is not fair game in my book.

(+10)

You said you started the jams for the community to have fun but there's already been devs that said they left the jam just because they don't want to compete with AI slop, there's also been non-devs that have said that they've stopped caring about the jam altogether because of all the AI slop on there.

That means some people just don't find it fun any more.

(+3)(-2)

You can create an AI game any where anytime and publish it and stick your 9 bucks tag on it. Where already seeing it, good luck with that. It doesn't need to be entered into a gamejam. Cammy summed it up well enough for me not to need to say any more or worry about it. The SLOP for cash is the problem, so lets watch out for that.

(+8)

my toaster wants to join the game jam but it burnt my crumpets this morning and refuses to apologise, so I won't allow it

#neverslop

(+7)

I understand Cammy's point but one of the entrants seems to be churning out sports games on a very regualr basis and I did read a post on another forum where someone had literally asked AI to port a game for them.  Surely this is not the sort of thing we want for the Jam?  I accept that maybe the quality of the AI games is not always great and can't necessarily compete with properly handcoded or human made games as they must be more difficult to fine tune but I agree that without some sort of subdivision you risk alienating us old fashioned coders!

Submitted
Deleted 21 days ago
Deleted 11 days ago
Submitted
Deleted 21 days ago
(+8)

I'm not glad there are more offers when most of those offers are just AI-slop that makes it harder to find games with creativity, a soul.

A big problem I have with AI is that it spits in the face of real creativity. 

People that use AI could have used time to learn a craft, to actually make something, but instead they just tell a machine to do it for them and then they expect to be treated with respect for doing so. 

I respect badly made art/games/music, at least I know there's a person behind it that tried to make something, even if the outcome wasn't that great in the end but with AI no one made it, you just told a machine to do it and there's no thought behind anything it made. It's soulless 

Deleted 11 days ago
(+4)

> We voluntarily give up any prize and just want to be rated neutrally.

claude was ok with this?