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Art is your mortal soul fighting the chaotic universe.

Very poetic. And some things that we call art probably can be desribed this way.

But not everything humans make is "art". Most things humans create is garbage in the artistic sense. And a lot of so called art is pretentious makebelieve.

Of course ai creations are worth less than human creations. But that depends on your criteria. If you want to appreciate art, you want to appreaciate the human skill involved and sometimes hidden or deeper meanings, if there are any, or if you can apply some.

The skill involved to create an image with a pencil is already different from the skill involved to create a similar image with a digital tool. Yet they are still very similar.

But the skill involved to create an image with an ai is a completely different skill.

You would not compare hand drawn portraits to photos, as taking photos is yet another skill. But you do not deny that photos can be art. At the same time, you would not call all those selfies and photos taken with phones "art", just because a human pressed the button. And it is only the press of a button nowadays, not much skill needed what with the autofocus and other gimmicks. That's even easier than writing an ai prompt.

Creating things with ai can be art. Most things you will see is not. Just like some photos are art, yet most photos taken and published on social media are not. I see lots of parallels here.

It's completely technically bad and has no good perspective, composition etc. - you're still in love with the picture.

And you would not call it art. It is a memorabilia.

I do not look at the graphics of a game and think of past memories or appreciate the art of the 3d rendered graphics. I just think they look cool or good. I might apreciate the style of hand drawn 2d art or even the skill. And I might tolerate the ai images someone used to fulfill their dream of making their own game and apreciate the mechanics or story of the game, yet otherwise find the graphics bland and boring - or even apreciate how the usual ai boringness was overcome.

Yet I will groan and avoid the slop being made, be it with ai or codeless engines or shovelware asset flips. Slop is not new, but the shovelware makers now can create a lot more of it. But this does not mean, that each and all ai helped creation is slop or that it is impossible to create actual art with it.

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Hello.

It is very poetic, thank you! Poetry is art, and my little soul has fought the universe to get here. However, I have no interest in engaging in arguments about semantics! Garbage in the artistic sense is still art, it's just bad art! Pretentious makebelieve is also bad art too. You've missed my point unfortunately; I never said that AI slop looks bad. I also am not about to debate my criteria; this is something I believe - that art as a definition is objective. There is nothing you can say that will change my mind about that! I'm kind of confused though, because reading your post makes me feel like you think you've disagreed with me, but you're making points in support of my argument:

You say taking a photo is its own skill, and that photos can be art - I agree. But notice what you said makes a photograph art: a person trained their eye for years and used their skills in the right moment; the value still comes from the mortal being spending time behind it. You admit this yourself when you dismiss phone selfies - that's literally my argument.

About slop, yes, "slop is not new" - it's made by lazy people, and lazy people don't get to make art. I said this in my first post; you've noticed the exact pattern I described. AI letting lazy people produce slop faster doesn't weaken my argument? More people just get to skip to the end result faster.

Your comment about games is another place you agree with me fully - you tolerate the bland AI graphics and you appreciate the mechanics and the story. In other words: the parts of the game a human being poured themselves into are the parts you value, and the generated parts are the parts you don't. That is my entire argument, in your own words, about your own experience??

As for the crayon drawing, I don't know, man... you calling it "memorabilia" doesn't change anything. You accept that the drawing has value completely independent of technique and you just called it memorabilia (which is art) instead of art... The 10,000,000 generated crayon drawings still belong on no fridge...

"It is possible to create actual art with it." - possible feels like a cheap word to me.. It is possible to hand infinite monkeys infinite typewriters, and one of them will write Shakespeare. A work with AI in it that has human parts and AI parts... well, the human parts don't get to keep their value. A work doesn't function like that. You experience it as one thing - I don't sit down to consider which parts were AI; the very use-of-AI step wrecks that for the whole piece of work at once - once AI was used anywhere, I can no longer know where. The artist can swear they only used it for the textures, but there's no way (and I don't want to - it shouldn't be my problem) for me to verify that.

You know how in sports, when an athlete is caught using steroids, we don't sit down and try to find out which races were clean, right? The athlete's out for good because the whole point of sports is to push mortal human capability, and the one cheating incident makes every result moot.

I am re-reading my post and yours, and I'm realizing I'm continuing to talk about why AI art is value-less, because that's my main point. This is because of this sentence at the core of your arguments: "But the skill involved to create an image with an ai is a completely different skill." The sentence you have written has no meaning; I literally do not understand it. You cannot create an image with an AI... the AI created the image. Sorry, it just makes no sense. "The skill to make a pizza from a restaurant and have it delivered to you is a completely different skill." - this is what it sounds like to me... The restaurant made the pizza... what?

Your point was to elevate art to some expression of the soul and you claim that this is an objective criteria. And since ai have no soul, what they create is not art. No matter how good it looks. And what humans create is art, no matter how bad it looks.

My definition of art involves skill. You need to apply skill and apply it masterful. Your definition seems to require putting your soul into the work. What exactly is art and what is not, is a philosphical debate that is ongoing and unresolved for thousands of years. There was a shift like 300 years ago, to the non crafty appliance of art and consider them more artsy, especially if the result is aesthetically pleasing or invokes emotion.

Under the emotional soul expression criteria, practically all video games are not art. They are commercially driven and people draw and write, what brings profit. That's not soul pouring, that's devoid of soul. Some indie games will be a lot better in that aspect.

You also seem to put value on lazyness or non lazyness. So is an artist that switches from analog to digital no longer creating art, because of the lazyness involved by selecting the tool that is faster? Is a photographer no longer creating art, because it takes a second to take a picture, instead of long preparations it took a hundred years ago? Is an artist that trained for weeks not an artist, because some artists have trained for years? What about talent. What about that child drawing? There is no training at all, yet you elevated it to art, because of the emotions.

Anyway, there are no universally agreed upon criteria. So there are no objective criteria. And there is nothing specific in your critera, that denies art status to ai output. An ai operator learning how to operate an ai and spending time to get the perfect prompt and then selecting the perfect image, that will invoke the emotions and represents the feelings put into the work would satisfy your requirements, would it not.

the value still comes from the mortal being spending time behind it

If time spent would be the only criteria, all ai outputs would be art. Bad and lazy art usually, but art.

In other words: the parts of the game a human being poured themselves into are the parts you value, and the generated parts are the parts you don't. 

No. I might still apreciate the ai pics. It's just harder to see the skill there and easier to appreciate other aspects of a game. It's just not a selling point to me. And neither would badly hand drawn art be a selling point to me, for that matter. You would have to do extraordinairy things with ai, to peek my interest. Like OP did. I am not here to appreciate art in a game. The premise is wrong. Also, it is in contrast to professional commercial games. There I would not tolerate it, because in my opinion they should spend their budget on commissioning art. It is not because of art considerations that I would not tolerate it there.

You accept that the drawing has value completely independent of technique and you just called it memorabilia (which is art) instead of art

No, memorabilila are not art. And their value is not an artistic value. They have a function. It is what they represent. A toenail clipping can be a memorabilila.

It is possible to hand infinite monkeys infinite typewriters, and one of them will write Shakespeare. 

Not in a physical universe. Although, you would need a photographer lector to sieve through all those works and identify the good works, and that act would be the actual art. It is not the skill of writing, but the skill to identify the artistic sunset writing.

You know how in sports, when an athlete is caught using steroids

Ahh. The fairness argument. But that only holds if you would enter different games into the same jam and some of those used ai. And would therefore somehow perform better. For one thing, they do not, because people do not like ai very much. Using ai actually hurts the game. And in the open market you cannot use the fairness argument. What't the fairness between an AAA game and an indie game made by a hobby dev. You can't compare those. 

But you might mean the tainted blood argument in combination with the assumption that ai is the taint and games need to be pure. You will not convince coders of this, for ai usage in code - and those do use vibe coding as an insult. You will have better chances with people that want to look at human made graphics. But then again, there is a huge lot of rendered graphics, procedurally generated. There is not much human in those.

But it would work for the places, where human made assets would compete with ai made assets. 

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My general point in ai discussions or rather anti ai discussions is, that people are doing it wrong. Shortsighted mostly. Like ethical consideration about stealing, if implemented legally, would just lead to legally and thus ethically trained data, and the argument would be compeletely negated and there still would be ai. Power consumption for a thing like image creation is trivially negated. You can run such a thing on your desktop with less power needed than it would require to play a 3d game. And you will get an image every few seconds. There is a huge power waste in ai, but not for the things complained about in images for video games. And the using the lazy tool arguments are going on for as long as people invent tech to make life easier.

You bring an art argument, but that is not against ai specifically. Just some arbitrary criteria, that will hit actual art as well. But what is art is debated anyway. Also, ai are still operated by humans, so what is created this way, can still be considered art, even under your criteria. Not all of it, but some. And even if we would consider it not to be art, what would that change? Same as me, most people that play games are not in it for the art apreciation.

"But the skill involved to create an image with an ai is a completely different skill." The sentence you have written has no meaning; I literally do not understand it. You cannot create an image with an AI... the AI created the image. Sorry, it just makes no sense. "The skill to make a pizza from a restaurant and have it delivered to you is a completely different skill." - this is what it sounds like to me... The restaurant made the pizza... what?

The skill to draw an image and the skill to take a picture are not the same skills. The skill to tell a computer system what to do is yet another skill. As is the skill to select the good images.

Ordering a pizza is also a skill. It is a social skill if done by phone. And some organizing. Plus you need to select the pizza restaurant. Also the pizza toppings. Maybe you dislike olives or can't eat sea food. If you order pizza for a group of people, many things can go wrong. You need timing too and organize the orders of your friends. It is not a complicated skill and most people will be able to do this without training by applying skills they already have.

AI have no agency. They do not "create" the image. They need prompting. Who takes the picture, the photographer or the camera?

Who is responsible for the music in an orchestra? The individual musicians, or the conductor? Does the conductor create music? In some sense, yes, in some sense, no. But the conductor still gets credit for the orchestra's performance and it is considered a form of art.

Read that article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)#Interpretations

The skill used was not sculpting. It was a kind of performance art and philosophical provocation.

You can't or should not compare art by their representation. The example is an image. You can create an image by a lot of different means. Involving a lot of different skills.

A painter paints. Needs also to select the colors, the right brushes, arrange the objects, even mix the color paste, use light effects, apply perspective.

A photographer takes a photo. Needs to direct the objects, wait for the right moment, arrange the lights and so on. And also select the good pictures, since digital cameras can take so many of them. Also will involve digital retouching, especially in commercial settings.

What does an ai operator do? Craft a prompt in a way that the results fit the wanted criteria. Overlaps with some skills a photographer needs. Mostly selecting the good ones. Overlaps with some skills coders use as it's literally telling the computer what to do. But with natural language, instead of a special computer language. Conceptually, it is what a conductor does. Directing someone else to do the actual work.

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Hello.


I was getting a bit frustrated reading your reply until you said that ordering pizza on the phone is also a skill, a toenail clipping can be memorabilia, that the monkeys wouldn't write shakespeare in a physical universe and "Ahh, the fairness argument". I now see that we are talking about completely different things, and having two different discussions, and if ordering pizza by phone counts as a skill for these purposes, then our ideas of what skill means are too far apart to bridge in a forum thread. So I'm going to be leaving it there. Thanks for the discussion, and good luck.

You were having a discussion about feelings, I guess.

I feel that there is too much AI usage, but I do not try to justify this by invoking soul or denying that ai usage is a skill that can be applied artistically.

You argue with things that would make you accept ai usage as art, if you would consequentially apply those things. "The effort gives it value". Just because some people do not put effort into this, does not mean that you cannot put effort into using an ai. And if you put importance on the effort as a defining criteria for art, than by your logic, ai usage can be art. Which will contradict your feelings.

Shame you did not answer the questions about the conductor. Because if you accept that what a conductor does, is rightfully considered art, you might accept more easily, that ai usage itself is not a hinderance for art and move on to more sound arguments against ai usage.

--

I agree that it is vital to have the same understanding of words in a discussion. But I think you are wrong here. English is not my native language, and I checked in the dictionary.

skill noun

1 a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance

b: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

2: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

Even reading the clock is a skill. You need to teach it to children. Shopping is also a skill. And so is reading. And subesquently ordering a pizza. Just because you can attempt something without specific training does not mean, there is no skill involved. You just transfer the knowlege and experience of other skills. A young child would not even know how to use the telephone.

memorabilia plural noun

1 : things that are remarkable and worthy of remembrance

2 : things that stir recollection or are valued or collected for their association with a particular field or interest 

Memorabilia are things that make you remember. They stir recollection of past events. It's literally what the word means. Even though the English meaning also includes the collector's aspect of collecting not keepsakes, but collectibles, like baseball cards.

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Hello, your guess is wrong; I was having a discussion about the truth and value of human experience.

The thing you're doing, and you did in this latest reply, is actually a perfect encapsulation of why I am not going to engage with you on the original topic anymore:


Your way of arguing is by quoting fragments of my post and answering each one, but you are also very carefully selecting the fragments, and your arguing is happening through the lens of this selection. The sentences of mine that you quote are specific ones with "hooks" or "handles" for you: definitions (that can be disputed and focused), analogies that are literalized. You do not quote the whole sentences that carry my actual point, and by extension, conveniently you never answer them. Then you feel righteous in your ability to say "Shame you didn't answer X" and then you post your reply as complete - after all, every one of your quotes has your answer to it underneath it. Very unfortunately for me, my argument is in parts you conveniently didn't select to quote.

And now you're demonstrating the second "move" that you pair with it: when you don't answer a point, it gets renamed into a thing which makes it not have to be. My example of the child's drawing and the ten million identical ones never received an answer. My point about the AI communities and the hunger for outside validation also. 


I told you, I'm not going to argue with you about semantics. The truth is that AI art is worthless and I'm confident my original argument and position are pretty rock-solid on their own, without this massive derail. As a whole, my position comes down to one simple principle: the value of a work is conditioned entirely by its making: who made it and at what cost, and whether the materials were taken with consent, and never by how pleasing the output is. AI developers stole, averaged, algorithmized the output of human experience. They made software that pretends to be human - that's called lying. I don't know about you, but I don't like being lied to - it's just like a thing about me; I don't like it.


I'm 100% sure that you can use cold, machine logic, like you have been, to empirically prove that I'm wrong. I'm sure you can come up with machine logic that will point to how we are all being lied to, because our eyes are imperfect, for example. I'm not interested in that way of reasoning; and the reason I wished you good luck is because I used to be interested, and it leads to an incredibly cold, sterile and dead place, and I was lucky that I managed to get out of it.

You try to appeal to emotion and you try to define art and claim your definition is the truth and your logic than goes, that ai works are not art, because of intrinsically lacking soul and value or whatever. If I misunderstood, sorry. But your post came across to me, as you try the worth of art angle to argue against ai.

And you did not pick up my examples of situations where the output and method to achieve that output are in a way, that might contradict your definitions of "truth".  What you argue about does not even target ai usage in specific, it only targets low effort. If you want to argue for ai avoidance, you need better arguments.

So tell me, is a musical conductor doing art? And who creates the music? Who does the work and who is credited for the orchestra's performance?

Who is creating the photo? The photographer or the camera? Who is doing the art, and by which skills exactly?


it's about the value of art again: You've had yourself a child and this child draws you a picture with crayons that says "Daddy" or "Mommy" and it's a picture of you. It's completely technically bad and has no good perspective, composition etc. - you're still in love with the picture. You still hang it up on your fridge and you smile when you see it. You go to your close friend's house and you look at their fridge and there's a drawing of them by their child, and you smile again. You can ask an AI to generate you 10,000,000 "cute crayon drawing by a child for their parent" and you'll get exactly what you asked for. Would you smile? Would you be able to say any of them belong on any fridge? The soul is missing, I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make.

Your premise is, that the child's drawing is art. And you go on to defeat this premise, by the phrases "still hang it up". "still in love". So you display the drawing, knowing it is not art, but because of other reasons. That reason is, that it makes you smile. That smile is not art apreciation, but the feeling it invokes of the knowlege that your child is happy and makes you happy. Same for your friend's child, where you go awwwww, how cute. That reason is the keepsake aspect. That drawing makes you think of these things.

If a drawing appears to you, that was not made by your child or another child, but you would know that an adult artist attempting naive style had drawn it, it would not invoke those feelings. You would either reject it as art, because of the things you said about good perspective and composition or eye rollingly accept it as "naive art made by an established artist" and just ignore it and sure would not hang it on your living room wall.

If your child played around with "my kids first ai bot" and selected a favorite picture the bot made, you do might print that out and hang it on the fridge to celebrate your kid's success on operating a piece of tech at a very young age. Or maybe your child can't draw physically because of an ailment, so it makes you smile when you see that picture, because it reminds you of your child still being able to do some things other kids do with the help of technology. 

That crayon pic's value is not defined by soul or artistic value. It's value is defined by your emotional connection to it. And that could also be just a twig the kid brought home from a walk in the woods. And, yes, also a toenail clipping. When clipped, it sprung to your older kids cereal and the sibling almost ate it and the whole family had a really good lough after a long season of bad weather. So you kept the clipping to remind you of that happy day.

I do see the point you were trying to make, and I see how and why it misses. I condensed your point and my response into the observation, that this crayon pic is not art, but memorabilia.

Another interpretation would be, you claim the crayon pic is art by another definition, and that an ai made pic would not be able to meet that definition and therefore, lacking the soul, is not art. But the crayon pic itself fails that definition, because it is not the soul in the work that makes it art worth keeping, but your emotional connection to that pic. And that is something you can establish to an output of ai as well. Like, for example, if your child was the ai operator and made a special pic for you.

Oh, and that crayon pic is art, but mostly in the sense of art being anything created by a human. There is a reason for the word artificial. Which reminds me of artificial intelligence. But until we have ai bots that have actual agency, any ai still needs a human operator. Which makes the output of an ai, a human made thing, or in other words: art.

The effort put into the actual making is greatly reduced and transfered into other skills, like prompt crafting and the selection process. But that is a similar process as has already happenend in the established art of photography. The modern photographer can get away with pressing the button hundreds of times a minute and selecting the good pics afterwards. Selecting the light and arranging/directing the objects/models is the analog of the prompt crafting.

Anyway, putting low effort into ai usage is easy. But you do can put a lot of effort and soul into it. Most people that published ai works, will be of the type that put little to no effort into it. Or rather, the minium amount of effort to achieve the result. Is it art? Yes. Is it worth apreciating? Usually no. But that goes for works of established artists as well. Some of these things are just called art out of habbit.

So my stance is, that we need better arguments against ai. The arguments that only target things that will apply to non-ai art as well, are not good enough.

For games, I like the microwave analogy. I would not accept microwaved premade food in a fancy restaurant.